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The 8EV and the confluent points.
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Practically, what grabbed me most in the introductory portion of the text was the observation that Li Shizhen did not discuss that confluent points in his text and the idea that “we can’t just assume we are accessing the 8EV because we are sticking a few needles in the confluent points.”
I wonder how we are to interpret the finding that Li did not mention the confluent points? Can we be sure of any interpretation? We must remember that he lived in a time when there was no internet or mass communication. I write as a matter of record daily and I would imagine that there will be little question as to my motives and thinking in the future.
People often write me asking, “why didn’t you cover the 8EV or at least CV and GV in your clinical practice book? Could you please write another chapter?” . It’s plain to see that if I had written the text 800 years ago people could draw the concusion that I didn’t think CV and GV were important. The simple fact is the book was 870 pages and at some point one just has to call it quits! That’s the only reason I didn’t do it. I was tired of writing and the book was getting too large.
My point is we don’t know Li’s motivation. Assuming he did know of the confluent points he might have ust taken them for granted as basic knowledge not worth reiterating, or maybe he didnt use the points much. Maybe they just don’t figure in herbalism or alchemy and those were his main interests as far as the 8EV went. Is there any information available to suggest that he actually disregarded the use of the confluent points in acupuncture? Lastly, there weren’t thousands of practitioners writing at the time. I think we are at risk to take a single text, or the work of one or two people because that’s what we have available, and draw sweeping conclusions about how these things were understood or are to be understood. We shouldn’t limit ourselves in this way. I’m hoping what will come out of this discussion is a living inquiry into what the 8EV are now to us, how we use them, and how Li’s observation might confirm or deny our own.
Now we come to the bigger issue of assuming that just because we are needling the confluent points can we really assume we are accesing the 8ev? This point really made me stop and think because it’s entirely true that I mechanically and by habit assume I’m accessing these deeper oceans and think of the confluent points as switches.
So…….the issue is how do we know when we are really accessing these points? Well one way is on pulse and I do understand a bit about pulse qualities associated with the first four of the 8EV (CV, GV, Chongmo, and Daimo). I have expectations regarding how the pulse will change when I treat these vessels and don’t consider the TX to be done unless I see the change I’m looking for.
50 Responses
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What is interesting is that his text is not just about medicine, but inner cultivation. I’m wondering if he is not accesing the EV in some other way as the book is strong in daosist esoterica.
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lonny not sure, given, i may be missing your point, just the same you say:
Now we come to the bigger issue of assuming that just because we are needling the confluent points can we really assume we are accesing the 8ev?
if you remove the 8ev from your statement and change it to:
“Now we come to the bigger issue of assuming that just because we are needling certain points can we really assume we are accessing anything with acupuncture?”
isnt this how the western mind sees acupuncture?
this question you ask when generalized is first and foremost on anyone’s mind that is coming to experience acupuncture for the first time. it is also the view so many skeptics use to try and wash out or demean acupuncture. though as valid as it is, is it really the first question that should come to mind in those of us that practice 8ev. besides, as you note, the pulses change and is one of the first lessons in its use, or is this question always so really pervasive continuously in our practice? is it any different here than with of the other approaches. we know there are many ways to skin this cat, tcm, balance, french energetics, manaka, e stem, dry needle, 5 element, etc. as you note, the pulse is the first given in 8ev, when these confluence points are accessed we feel the pulse immediately change, do we need more validation?
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I think there is a deeper issue here Rick. Putting needles in people often creates change. I have no doubt that CM works. But the point is……are we accessing the deeper flows because we are sticking needles in confluent points? How do we know? How do we now we aren’t just treating the spleen and HP channels/officials as opposed to Chongmo?
I know that acupuncture can do a lot with no level of personal cultivation at all. Just draining AE can radically change people’s lives and I could teach an intelligent 10 year old to do it in a few hours.On the other hand, it takes a tremendous amount of authentic experience and sincere practice and development to get anywhere near the higher potentials of the medicine. People have a fantasy, for example, that if they stick a needle in a “Window of the sky” point they are effecting the spirit or some such thing. Well, not necessarily. I mean, the patient might say "ow I felt so happy after that TX but this has nothing much to do with real spiritual tranformation.
So it seems reasonable to me that to access the deeper flows would take more than pushing a few buttons.
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If we are really practicing integral medicine then our own integrity is absolutey implicated when it comes to the higher aspects of the medicine. I like the implication that maybe we cannot access the 8EV just by pushing a switch, that cultivation is needed. THis creates a kind of tension that pulls on my fet need to inquire more deeply into, "well does it take to access these flows, what can this mean? How am “I” implicated?
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thanks lonny for your answer to the first question.
to the second entry, what if cultivation isnt necessary to piush the buttons of the deeper flows? does it lessen the impact or this medicine in any way? does it make it less valid or maybe more important because if it is a beneficial approach without it then it should be practiced sooner rather than later.
isnt it implied or maybe possible that no matter where you are there is going to be tension or cultivation to higher potential even if it is in the tension of the last breath? i see that you “like” it but is that the only validity to it? i am not disagreeing with your points though but want to question them for greater clarity. personally, i felt it strongly as i began to practice 8ev medicine. i assume it is important, i just dont know if it is necessary.
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About half of the master and couple points are Luo points so from the perspective of Luo principles, it is entirely possible that patients are receiving powerful treatments when only master/couple points are needled without any accompanying practitioner cultivation, deeper intention, needle technique, trajectory or realm understanding of EV’s, etc.
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That’s right, but there maybe a deeper level that we are not accessing with just needling the master and couple points.
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Rick, in general there’s a deeper level of awakening that’s needed to reach any of the higher potentials of the medicine. That’s what this entire site is about.
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Just a note/question about terms used in different contributions:
I gather that when you say ‘master and couple points’ you mean ‘confluence points’. I know of the term ‘master points’ as a synonym (strange translation though for 交會 jiao1hui4), but am at a loss where the ‘couple’ comes from. Is there maybe a difference between ‘master’ and ‘couple’ points?
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I understand jiao as “crossing” and “hui” as meeting. Where do “Master and Couple” come from? A European idea based on a poor translation? Or a deliberate naming? By who, when?
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Ursula – that was my point. Just suggesting to Ric that needling Luo points is going to be a profound treatment, often.
Nicolaas . Perhaps I was getting sloppy with language – just quickly looking in Maciocia’s Secondary Vessels book, he uses Opening Point – so you tell me what the correct term for the points we have been taught to use to ‘open’ the Extraordinary Vessels. For example, we are taught that the ‘Opening Point’ for the Governing Vessel (Du Mai) is Small Intestine 3. And then we are also taught that each Extraordinary Vessel has a ‘Coupled Point’ that happens to be an Opening Point of another vessel – so for example, the Couple Point for the Governing Vessel is Bladder 62 which also happens to be the Opening Point of the Yang Qiao Mai. I am sure I have heard the term ‘Master Point’ used instead of ‘Opening Point’.
Oh, just looking in a Secondary Vessels book I have from China, they use the term ‘Confluent Points’.
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Obviously, we have just started the book at this point, but I am curious if anyone has any insights
-- the pairing of the EV’s implicit in the same pairs of confluent points assigned to a pair (e.g. Small Intestine 3 and Bladder 62 for both the Du Mai and the Yang Qiao Mai) suggests that there must be some sort of inverse relationship betweenDu Mai and Yang Qiao Mai
Ren Mai and Yin Qiao Mai
Dai Mai and Yang Wei Mai
Chong Mai and Yin Wei Mai
would love to hear any insights on these particular pairings.
It will be interesting to see if any of what I will call the ‘non confluent point perspective’ that Li Shi Zhen offers (alchemical perspective?) also suggests these paired relationships
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@ lonny ;-)
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I wonder if anyone has an explanation for why these points are associated with the 8EV?
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The couple points didn’t come until much later.
Li ShiZhen didn’t mention them because they hadn’t yet been “invented” or agreed upon at the time he wrote this book.
The idea that using the luo to access the source, goes back to the Su Wen, which is why they chose mostly luo points to get into the 8x, with the exception of Gall Bladder 41, a shu stream point, used to access the Dai. That would be a worthy discussion as to “why” you would use a shu stream to drain the Dai, vs. using the luo.
Why would you use pericardium 6, Nei Guan to enter into the Yin Wei Mai? I’d say that it is because the yin wei mai deals with heart pains. Unresolved emotional issues and traumas that get somatized into physiological disease or pathology or perhaps organic heart issues. If you look at the points along yin wei mai, we have kid 9, to the spleen points, 12, 13, 15 to liver 13, 14 then to ren 22, 23 ish…. What does this code or this trajectory have to say? I have learned that perhaps these are not actual “points” but rather a trajectory that tells a certain story. That the fears that settle into our kidney, that, like an imposition, like a guest who has outworn it’s welcome, like the sublimated divergent issues of socialization (kid 9, guest house), in an effort to bring the Yi, or mindfulness into their transformation, we bring this into spleen, (kidney yang supporting spleen yang )and instead of resolve, we begin to obsess over, the getting stuck with the mental hangups in earth that over “time” will effect your blood (liver 14, Qi Men, the completion gate, the relationship to the Hun and the element of time)….and that which you cannot complete, those psychological issues that you cannot let go of, get encrypted or worn into the blood, the storage of liver blood that then rises to become heart qi, that negativity or pathology begins to enter the capital, the heart and ultimately the Constitution, the Ren, the throat….it becomes that which you cannot release (heart releasing at the throat) so sinking back down inward to the Jing (pericardium) ….. who is going to access this level of barriers, restriction, obsession, trauma’s….of course it will be pericardium. That which will not allow the heart to release, or the jue yin pair of the liver, has access to that encrypted blood that is toxic to the heart. The inner gate, pericardium 6, Wei Guan, that which allows us to open up the chest and release the stubborn obsession with our “heart pain” and release the yin, release Ren Mai, and thus free the level of the Yuan.
I agree with you Lonny, about the absurdity of sticking needles into Spleen 4 and thinking we are accessing the Chong, or pericardium 6 will get you into YIn wei mai. Certainly, it might…but not automatically.
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Funny story.
The first time I treated 8EV was in student clinic. I read night and day on what to do through Jeffrey Yuen’s transcript of 8EV. He says to contact the 8EV as opposed to the 12 regular meridians. One needs to needle using a deep kind of vibrating motion. It’s like you are reaching deep into the yuan qi to grasp it. Then since the yuan qi is deep and thick you have to vibrate it to rouse it’s vitality! Through this you awaken the deep 8EV. So being a novice I and reading this from a book I asked my self, what the hell am I doing. How the hell do I vibrate a needle? A few days later there I was poised to needle spleen’s junction and awaken the 8EV. Needle over the point I finally realized I had no clue as to what I was about to do. Being foolhardy I plunged the needle down and found the point. Suddenly I started to vibrate my hand. My hand jumped up and down in quick motion, slight sweat started to rise out of my skin as I wondered if I was doing something wrong when suddenly the entire building began to rumble, roar and shake! Yes this was it! This must be a sign that I did it. Absolutely, no doubt at all, success! I not only hit the point, reached the 8EV but also turned on the building’s AC all in one fell swoop. Just another day in the clinic…
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The Qiao’s, the Du and the Dai are not “opened” by Luo points. Maybe we can get into a discussion on why as we get deeper into other chapters.
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The inner gate, pericardium 6, Wei Guan,
Lonny: A lot to think about Jennifer. Just a mention the HP-6 is Neiguan 內關 and TH-5 is Waiguan 外關 . I hope we can get to a full discussion of each of the 8EV as we proceed through the book.
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Greetings everyone,
Some of the points raised in this post have always constituted a fascination with me regarding how we know we are truly accessing this or that level/qi/channel in any given treatment. Certainly, depending on the style being employed, protocols exist to make certain clinical confirmations (pulse, palpation, etc).
But I agree with Lonny that change simply happens with acupuncture, and while being a function of a great many factors—not least of which is the level of depth/authenticity of the practitioner—often we may not truly know with 100% accuracy, that we are doing what we think we are doing.
I have always wondered about the kind of research that could be produced by a practitioner with the ability to perceive qi as well as feel it. The effects of intention, levels of patient receptivity…perhaps even the basic acupuncture mechanism (for lack of better words). I have received many different and equally sensible answers to this question.
Yes, this certainly grabbed me the most too – - – particularly having been trained in Yoshio Manaka’s EV treatment approaches (from people who studied and apprenticed with him directly) which have generated legions of practitioners worldwide who very cavalierly needle the master couple points. Silent omission is a peculiar thing. One would think if Li Shi Zhen had a fervently held ‘problem’ with Master points, he would have actively commented on them. Perhaps from his ‘alchemical’ perspective, they just weren’t very significant. For sure, this encourages us all to take the EV’s, their complete trajectories, zones of influence and realms of influence a lot more seriously – which has to be a good thing. My understanding is that Manaka was quite a scholar and warrior – it would have been great to have a chat with him about this.